All eyes on Shanghai at the moment. And
in in previous instances, this has been
referred to as the the League of
Authoritarian Gentlemen or a dictator's
club, but it's it's somewhat upended
now, isn't it? When you see people like
Narendra Modi attending, too. What do
you make of his attendance?
>> Well, there's a lot of bad news here,
very little good news. Um uh the the
West has spent decades, US in
particular, trying to wean India away
from its cold war attachment to Soviet
Union, Russia, buying sophisticated
weapons from them and and cautioning
India on the danger posed by China. This
is symbolized by what's called the Asian
security quad. Japan, India, Australia,
and the United States. a lot of effort,
a lot of effort to make India more
amendable to cooperation with these
countries. Donald Trump in the past
weeks has essentially upended that and
for a variety of reasons now sent India
back toward Russia to grow closer to
China uh and just shredding these these
decades of efforts to try and change
that alignment. I'm not saying this
can't be fixed, but it's going to take a
lot of work and I don't see it starting
anytime soon. Six months ago, we would
have talked about the bromance between
Donald Trump and Narendra Modi of of
India and then in Trump's attempt to try
and bring some leverage against Putin of
Russia in respect to the situation in
Ukraine 50% tariffs on India and are we
saying therefore from from your
perspective that that India has been
driven in this direction as much as it's
decided to go in this direction?
>> Well, I think I I think that's right.
It's a series of things that Trump has
done that have offended the Indians on
the basic tariffs uh that Trump wants
which I think as a macrolevel economic
phenomena are disaster for everybody but
the Indians thought they were in close
negotiations to solve this uh as Britain
did with with Trump and Trump just
dismissed it and set 25% tariffs then
carrying through as you mentioned on his
threat to either tariff Russia or impose
secondary tariffs on countries buying
Russian oil and ass. Uh Trump whacked
India with another 25%. Did not tariff
Russia, did not tariff China, the
largest purchaser of Russian oil and
gas. And then to make it worse, when the
recent uh uh escalation between Pakistan
and India over a terrorist attack in
Kashmir occurred. It escalated then came
back down. Trump took full credit for it
as one of the six or seven wars that he
stopped this year to deserve the Nobel
Peace Prize which has made India
incandescent.
>> This organization brings together a huge
swathe of the world. It's kind of a 40%
or so of the of the global population,
huge element of the Eurasian land mass,
something like 23% of global GDP. And
I'm just looking at some of the comments
being made by Xiinping and he says that
the world should seek integration, not
decoupling, have an inclusive economic
globalization and that there should be a
community of common security across the
region. This feels like a a massive
potential reset that the West would
really struggle to to counter.
>> Well, this is a largely a propaganda
show, but it it demonstrates
>> there's a reality behind it, though.
China's hegemonic ambitions in East and
Southeast Asia, Central Asia, the former
republics of the Soviet Union. Again,
all of which the US, Japan, Australia,
uh many in Europe have been trying to
prevent from happening. But Donald
Trump's tariff policies, his
unwillingness to consider uh even uh
beneficial diplomatic moves in a larger
strategic context have given Xiinping
and the Chinese an opportunity. Whether
they can exploit it or not remains to be
seen.
>> Where does this this leave us with the
situation in Ukraine and peace? Because
two weeks ago, 15th of August on the
Friday, we're focusing on Alaska, Putin
and Trump in the presidential car and
the beast driving away from their
aircraft. There was all the talk of
security guarantees, you know, Steve
Wickoff coming and making big
declarations following that feels like a
very far cryway. Now, how does
the US and the West
respond to what it's seeing and try and
bring about that goal of some degree of
peace in Ukraine? Well, I think the
whole thing is collapsing. I think the
chances for peace in Ukraine are
probably worse now than they were before
the Alaska summit. Putin has gotten away
literally with murder. Uh whatever he
said to Trump in Alaska, uh he's simply
ignoring with increased attacks on
civilian targets in Ukraine. No
dimmonition in Russia's military
efforts, no concessions, whatever. this
speech of his at the Shanghai
Cooperation Organization you just quoted
that the real fundamental cause of his
invasion of Ukraine was NATO uh is
something that's the basis for him now
to try and restructure NATO. That's what
he really wants as well as possession of
Ukraine. No change whatever in Russia's
position.
>> Why do you say the situation's worse now
than than before that summit?
>> Well, I think uh hard as it is to
predict what Trump will do, I think he
will just disengage. uh he's got a moral
equivalence between Russia and Ukraine
for who started the war and how it's
conducted. Uh I'm I'm very much worried
he will now simply back away, maybe
continue to sell arms to European
countries that can be transmitted to
Ukraine. Uh but in terms of any effort
to help Ukraine defend itself against
this unprovoked Russian aggression, I
don't see it.
>> What should the US be doing? Well, what
we should have done three and a half
years ago, frankly, was develop a
strategy with NATO, actually to achieve
what NATO's stated goal is, which is the
full restoration of Ukrainian
sovereignty and territorial integrity,
which uh we didn't do for three years
under the Biden administration. It's
much more difficult now. Uh but I think
that's the only acceptable outcome.
Otherwise, Russia, China, and other
potential aggressor nations will draw
the conclusion that you can get away
with aggression.
Has Trump been humiliated to some degree
in this situation by Putin?
>> Well, I think he has been. I don't think
he realizes it, but I think Putin
believes that the old magic is back,
that his KGB training has allowed him
again to pull the wall over Trump's
eyes. Uh, it's working out very well for
the Kremlin. What about you reference
European countries their NATO countries
you know last night for example the UK
agrees to supply and and Norway agrees
to buy as well British frigots for
example what can countries such as the
UK do in situations such as this how
much leverage is there in reality well I
think uh to support the commitment we've
all made to Ukraine uh the continuation
of arm shipment and and really
developing a strategy to prevent further
erosion of Ukrainian in control in the
uh in the face of this continuing
Russian onslaught is just critical. Uh
and if uh if the Trump administration
isn't willing to provide it, I think
England, which was a leader in uh aiding
Ukraine right from the day of the
invasion in 2022, uh could could well
take the the leading role. And in in a
sense of leadership, Sakir Stalmer has
allied with Amango Macron of France to
to head up the the coalition of the
willing as they're calling it that that
may play some role in security
guarantees if if if that world was to
ever come about.
What what do you make of of those
offerings to to try and bring about
peace in in that perspective?
>> Well, I don't think the security
guarantees mean that much actually. I
think what Putin has here is a long
range strategy to take control of
Ukraine. This is part of his goal to
recreate the Russian Empire. He's been
very clear on that in public statements
for 20 years. So despite the enormous
human cost to the Russians and to the
Ukrainians, he's only roughly doubled
Russian control of Ukrainian territory
from the first assault in 2014. I think
any pause in the fighting is just the
preliminary so that Russia can rebuild
and and restock its army and get ready
for the third offensive.
>> It always strikes me there's a challenge
for for Western democracies, fourear
cycles in the United States. In the UK,
four to five year cycles. Russia,
Putin's been there since 2000, 25 years.
You know, look at Xiinping. He's set
himself up for life as well. These these
authoritarian figures have the benefit
of time, do they not? that they afford
themselves the benefit of time and the
and the variable consistency from the
west is a challenge for the west because
we're changing tank if not on a on a
four-yearly basis often even faster than
that. Well, we actually did pretty well
through the cold war which was a long
struggle from 1945 roughly to 1989. Uh I
think we can do it again but I think it
requires honestly the leadership of the
United States and I don't see that for
the next three and a half years. To what
degree should we think about any
limitations that President Putin has?
And I I I think for example the economy
is suffering his long-term ally which he
pumped billions of dollars of support
into or rubles of support into. Bashar
al-Assad fools and all Russia really
does is allow the plane to land in
Moscow. You know Moscow and and Tran
sign a security agreement but then
Israel bombs Iran widely with US support
and Russia doesn't do anything there
either. Is is there limitations to to
Moscow and if so to what degree can they
be leveraged?
>> Well, I think there are limitations but
I think the graver danger is the axis
that's being formed right now between
China and Russia. Uh may look like the
SOS Soviet alliance of the cold war but
this time China is clearly the dominant
partner. Uh I think it has grave threats
implicit in it for Russia itself. But in
the meantime, this is how this Shanghai
Cooperation Organization meeting, and by
the way, the big parade on Wednesday
where where the Chinese Communist
version of how they beat Japan in World
War II will be displayed shows really
long-term thinking on Xiinping's part.
So, he's happy to bring Russia closer to
him in the long term. Very, very
beneficial to China.
>> And that parade, a historic attendance,
first time since 1959, I think, of a
North Korean leader going to that
parade. history being made there. A
different kind of history being made
here later this autumn. Donald Trump
coming for a second state visit.
Unprecedented. You will have seen that
moment that Sakir Sama flourishes the
letter from the king. What would if you
were sat in a room with either the king
or with Sakir? What would your advice be
to to dealing with Trump having spent so
much time with him one-on-one?
>> Well, flattery is always good. Uh refer
to the Gulf of America, formerly the
Gulf of Mexico. Think of things like
that. Uh I I give Starmer credit for for
deploying the state uh uh visit
invitation when he first met with Trump.
Uh he may want to deploy it two or three
more times during Trump's term. It may
be an annual thing. Trump loves it when
he when the queen gave the state dinner
in Buckingham Palace in in the the first
uh Trump state visit. Really? I thought
he would have stayed all night if he
could have. you you could see a world
where it would be beneficial for you
know it's often touted the special
relationship to have the president over
on a on a on an annual basis to really
cement that.
>> Well for Donald Trump I think other
presidents would be more understanding.
>> Fair enough. Fair enough. Your your own
relations with the president crumbled
somewhat. I think it's fair to say since
2019 since you worked for him. What is
your kind of stance there now in 2025?
Well, I think many of the policies Trump
is pursuing are detrimental to the
country, not just internationally, but
domestically as well. We we've just had
a situation where Trump has taken the US
government to have a 10% stake in Intel,
the major information technology
company. Congress has been on its summer
recess. I've only saw a comment from one
senator uh on that decision of partial
US ownership of a free enterprise
company. was Bernie Sanders, the
socialist independent who caucuses with
Democrats from uh uh Vermont, who
thought it was a great idea. Th this is
just simply not Republican party
philosophy at work.
>> There was an unusual situation in in
recent days where he he said that he
knew the feeling. You both have had the
FBI at your doors for for different
reasons. Investigations are ongoing.
What was that moment like on a personal
level?
>> Uh well, I've had more fun, let's put it
that way. There's a lot I could say on
that subject. I wish I could.
Unfortunately, now is not the time or
place.
>> No, I appreciate that. And how long we
are you in London for, John?
>> Well, just a short time to speak to the
Bruge Group this evening and have some
meetings.
>> Good to have you with us. Thank you for
sharing your time on Sky News.
Appreciate it. John Bolton